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Puzzlegirl, when people get nasty in debates (like calling someone naive and implying that they are stupid), I generally bow out, but in this case I am slightly agitated because of you innuendos and misrepresentations.....

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

This is incredibly unfair to both men and women, essentially implying that men don't experience emotional involvement at all when it comes to sex. It is downright false (maybe you need to spend more time observing human behaviour rather then applying theories to it) as men report greater sexual satisfaction when emotions are involved in a relationship. Most men would opt for regular sex in a loving relationship than constant sex with many people.

I have never said or implied that men don't experience emotions when they have sex. On the contrary, men DO feel emotions when they have sex. It's impossible not to as the hormone oxytoxin released during sex gives the emotionally feeling of well beaing and love...They just don't need emotional involvement BEFORE sex, and thus, the main major difference between men and women.

Also naive. Ever heard of something called the sexual revolution? More women do it than you think. Less than men, but there is also a social stigma attached to women being more often called sluts when they are promiscuous. Also, women are more vulnerable as assault and rape are such huge threats. If the gender playing field was leveled, more women would do it.

Calling me names like 'naive' will surely help you appear more intelligent! Harumph!

You can have all the revolution in the world and women will always be women. They will, again, before you misquote me, IN GENERAL, will not have sex for sex's sake. You can if you like, give a few examples here and there, but the numbers will never work up... Go to any culture, even the most open cultures in the world, and you'll find that women will still be women, and men will still be men...

Surely I will not deny that men have high testosterone. But I think if you told any guy that they always think with their dick they would be majorly offended. Why?

How do you know? Are you a guy? All my guy friends talk exactly this way. None of us get offended. We make jokes out of it... You see it in the movies, the news, the media in general and everywhere and do you see men going up in arms about it?

Because that "spread your seed" instinct is no longer needed in our current society. Humans now mainly rely on social interaction instead of survival. Although this fact was true in the past and today in sparsely populated areas you don't see everyone scrambling to have babies.

May I call you naive now? Since you called me so, I guess it's fine with you... It's now obvious to me you have zero understanding of what evolution is all about... Today, for humans, natural evolution have almost stopped because we change the environment to our needs. THe environment no longer changes us. Why are men the way they are? The evolutionary theory is that the men of our past (say cave men) who are sexually more prosmicious got more of their 'prosmicious' genes passed on down the generation, and the men who are more monogamous did not.. thus, you get a large proportion of men who are prosmicious today. In order for evolution to work today to reverse these numbers, there needs to be a mechanism that causes men who are prosmicious to stop passing on their genes. There are currently none today. Perhaps if you set up a law that executes prosmicious men, in a few hundred years you would have more monogamous men. Then men would have evolved from prosmicious today to non promiscious tomorrow.

Following your sexual instincts at every turn (like the priest molesters and the serial philanderers that you mention) is generally unacceptable behaviour in modern society (so it is NORMAL to hate cheaters).

Are you equating pedophiles with adults cheating on their spouses? Your moral compass is definitely whacked!

Also, yet again, without fail, you're misrepresenting me... Did I ever say cheating is ok? If simply stating facts like 'men cheats' suddenly makes you angry at me, then I guess I should just shut up!

Does testosterone = cheating?

I never said it is.. Yet another misrepresentation. I am saying that it makes it harder NOT to cheat.

No- both men and women cheat for a variety of reasons- they are not satisfied with their current partner, or they like the thrill of getting away with it. It's naive to think that women don't do it.

Yet, yet, another misrepresentation... did I say women don't cheat? I say if they do, they generally do it because they are not satisfied with their relationships or when their testosterone levels are at the highest and the opportunity presents themselves... In fact, I specifically said that about 50% of women cheats as well... perhaps not as frequent, but this is one stat or survey that is done...

Men cheat for reaons of having sex alone most of the time... have I said they don't cheat for any other reasons?

Though testosterone might make it more likely for men to cheat physically

Ah, finally the right representation....

So yes, some men cheat. A whopping 80%? I don't think so (I think you need to update your statistics)

Update from where? Do you have your own sets? I have searched a lot and found the stats form surveys that says anywhere betwen 30-80%... But personally I believe it's at the high end... why? Because of two simple factors.. One, I am a man, and I have truthful access to large numbers of men friends, in the hundreds, and most of them cheats (if they are able to)... plus, two, when you ask people about whether they cheat, it's very likely that they would deny it.....

In the end, I guess in this regard, you can believe your own stats and I mine..

Here's an article that I randomly found. You can look it up and you'll find that most studies will be in the same vein...

In this article, you'll find that it corroborates every single thing I have thus far said, ie:

1. Both men and women cheats.
2. Men, about 80% of the time. (you can have your own if you like)
3. Women, about 50% of the time. (again, you can have your own)
4. Men cheats for sexual purposes mostly. And this is primarily due to their high level of testosterone, the hormone that induces men to constantly think about sex which is also the hormone that is responsible for libido and sexual interest, without which, you would have no sexual interest at all.
5. Women cheats for emotional reasons.

Article on Infidelity:

The latest infidelity studies indicate that percentage-wise the gap is closing between cheating husbands in comparison to the percentage of cheating wives. However, even though more men are now becoming victims of infidelity, the fact still remains that 70% of infidelity victims are women. What’s interesting though, is that men and women who are cheating on their spouses give different reasons to justify their extramarital affairs.

The Top Reasons Men and Women Cheat

The top 3 reasons men cheat all relate to sex. However sex is not usually the motivating factor for cheating wives. The top 3 reasons women cheat relate to unmet emotional needs or a desire for attention. Listed below are the most common reasons cheating husbands and cheating wives use to justify their extramarital affairs:

Why Men Cheat

The most frequently cited reasons for infidelity among men include
• more sex (the desire for a more active sex life)
• sexual variety (a desire for different kinds of sex)
• opportunistic sex ( taking advantage of an opportunity to have sex without the fear of getting caught)
• to satisfy sexual curiosity (about a specific female)
• a feeling of entitlement (the belief that it’s a man’s prerogative to cheat)
• the “thrill of the chase”
• the desire to feel important or special
• sexual addiction

Why Women Cheat

The reasons most frequently cited for female infidelity include
• a desire for emotional closeness and intimacy (someone caring to confide in and bond with on an emotional level)
• a desire for attention (wanting be the center of a man’s attention again)
• to reaffirm her desirability (To feel validated as a woman)
• to re-experience feelings of romance
• a desire to feel “special”
• boredom
• loneliness
• sexual excitement

Men Cheat for Sexual Reasons, Women Cheat for Emotional Reasons

Granted, these are not the only reasons men and women cheat. There are other reasons as well. But the bottom line is that men are cheating on their wives primarily for sexual reasons, while women are cheating on their husbands mainly for emotional reasons. But these are the reasons most frequently given by cheating husbands and cheating wives who are willing to discuss their extramarital affairs.

Numerous studies on infidelity bear that out. In one study, 75% to 80% of the men who admitted to having extramarital affairs said that sex was the primary reason. Only 20% of the women who were having extramarital affairs said they did so for purely sexual reasons.

Where do I get my facts on these? Lots of research, on surveys conducted, reading many books on relationships and even books on gender differences. Where do you get your facts? Did you just pull them off thin air??

So you know a lot of reasons why religion is bad (which I'm not going to contest). But do you also know the reasons why religion is good?

Sorry, I must admit I really don't know of any. And I am not being sarcastic at all. I do know that at the base of religions, it teaches us to love, etc.. but at the back, it also teaches us to hate, ie, to hate people who don't believe the same as we do, and to believe in fairy tales as the absolute truth, and to be ignorant and ignore all that contradicts what the religion tells us as absolute truth, and to constantly fight science and progress... In fact, the teaching us to 'love thy neighbor' part may be extremely dangerously deceptive as it can be used to justify that religion is good and thus prolonging it's lifespan. This is but only a disguise. As an organization, it is a force for evil, it is a force for division, it is a force for ignorance... Can religious people be good? Of course, most of us have instinct to be morally good.. but religions tries to take credit for it and how many times have we heard the phrase, 'so, we are all bad, but only thru religion can be be good'... what utter nonsense...

If you are taught to 'love thy neighbor', period, then I would say that it's good... and that's what modern scientific and philosophical moral teaches us.. "love and learn'... and without the 'hate and ignorance' associated with it.

Having attended church for 10 years (you will learn more about religion that way than in any book) I can still acknowledge evolution, be pro-choice and pro-gay. Some may think I'm not a very good Christian. But I think even my minister would be proud of a balance achieved by love and understanding.

I have been to church for 12 years.

Until your church acknowledges in public that:

1. Gay people are good and not an abberation
2. Evolution is how we got here, not magically created by god.
3. Women have the right to abortion

Then you got those good moral qualities from attending church. Otherwise, you got it from a scientific society and you just ignore your own Religious teachings. And yes, you are not a true christian because you basically ignored the word of god (the bible)... Would the pope agree with you, btw?

If you ask me the one thing I have retained from religion it would be: Love and respect everyone. (Just try and think of something wrong with that- besides that it's really difficult. And no, you don't need religion to learn that,
but it helps)

Right, we don't need religion to leard that... any atheist parents can and usually do instill those qualities in their children without all the evil dogma associated with religion... and right, I can't think of why loving people is bad... but I can think of persecuting gay people are wrong... Believing in a god that would murder the entire world's population because he's pissed is wrong! Believing in a god that punished men for eternity for trying to learn (eating from the fruit of knowledge) is wrong...

Do I follow the bible? No- but I've read the entire thing. And I can even convince atheists that Jesus was an awesomely stellar guy. (for more info, you can PM me.)

You don't follow the bible, you're not a christian, period. If christians don't follow the bible, why have it? From childhood, and yes, I grow up a christian, and a fanatic one at that, the churches have taught us that the bible is the absolute word of god...

And is Jesus a stellar guy? I don't know... does he even exist? And if he does, then perhaps he's a stellar guy.. but is he a god? Absolutely not... even the muslims don't believe so... and the keep better records than the christians, just to be fair...

So in my opinion, war-mongers like Bush and science-lab bomber extremists are not truly Christians at all- frankly, we are ashamed of them.

Who we? The liberal, born into a christian family who don't believe in the bible? Or, the real christians that got him into office? The gay haters, the pro-life, and the bible believers? The ones who actually believe in their own religious text??

As far as I am concerned, you got more of your morals from science and a liberal society, then from your religion...


Anyways........