[suzushii]

Originally Posted by cool

I add sexual urges as instincts. This is were you disagree with me but you present no hard evidence. The argument of nature vs nurture is an ongoing battle and over the last decade nature seems to be taking the lead, but 20-30 years ago, we thought that 80% of who we are were nurture related. Now with more research we are finding out that more and more nature plays a harder role to simply dismiss... even 'criminals' may have a criminal gene..

And you present hard evidence where? If you want I'll dig up one of my courses, and transcribe exactly what I said - attraction is instinctual (you can't help who you feel attracted to) but cheating is a conscious choice.

Agreed. Humans are not like all animals but that does not mean we can easily escare our nature as well. Some Animals have culture too. And they learn to use tools, knows self, knows empathy.

We are not escaping our nature when not cheating. See your bias? Not cheating because one weighs the benefits to be less then the side-effects is all too human.

Animals don't have culture. Do you even know what you're talking about? Are you talking about the very complicated mating rituals that some animals do? Those are hardwired, instinctual.

There are very few animals who use tools. Very few who can at least recognise themselves in a mirror, and a couple who have a very limited understanding of self. And what do you know, they're primates! We are special. Empathy is almost devoid in the natural world. It presupposes doing something that is evolutionary disadvantageous to help another. Animals will sacrifice themselves for their offspring - but it is advantageous. They might even help other animals in the colony, but only if the colony is closely linked genetically. They might adopt other animals' offspring, but this is simply an overactive nurturing instinct, and very rare.

All in all, the empathy showed by humans, is unmatched. We can care for complete strangers. There are firemen, cops, scientists, and doctors, clearly at a disadvantage to their own life to help others. (not all of them earn lots of money, and many "marry" their jobs).

I agree with this mostly but not the 'cheating stats' you put out. In fact, please show where you found that men and women cheat almost the same and at about 30%. Perhaps you're the one generalizing??

You obviously don't even know what generalising means.
Say, if a fact is - some men cheat. Generalising would be: 100% all men cheat. As for the stats, I'll search for the study and post it later.

SO, if it's so simple to control as you put it, why is it not showing in the real world? Why are women complaining everywhere about their cheating husbands?? Why not just shut up about it? Why are we even having this argument and why are women so pissed about it? If men and women cheat exactly the same, then why are women blaming men all the time? Where's teh moral high ground? The next time a woman goes up in oprah and complains about her cheating husband, make sure you all boo her to death because women does it the same.

Why not improve your reading comprehension - I said:
Almost as many women as men cheat, that doesn't mean they cheat exactly the same.
I never said it was simple, I said a person can control them. Of course, some people chose not to. Not because they fail. But because they want to cheat and get away with it.

Why are some women pissed about it? the same reason men are pissed about it when their spouses cheat. Betrayal, jealousy. BTW, jealousy is a very basic feeling in humans. Women can't just "turn the other cheek" and pretend it never happened, unless they didn't have jealousy in the first place.

I find it funny how you would come out, read a few thread and arrive at this example. How many times have I specifically say how bad women feel when they are cheated upon and that men do try very hard not to cheat on the spouse they love. How is saying that a lot of men, even trying very hard, finds that they do sway, arguing in a vacuum when this is fact we see everyday of our lives?

I read the entire thread. You are trying to justify cheating. If a man wants to have sex with another woman, he should tell his wife. The wife then, should decide - let the man have sex on the side, and maintain the family, or separate because she doesn't want that kind of relationship.

To prevent the woman from this decision is despicable. The fact that you're trying to justify it is also morally corrupt.

First you say men and women are monogamous and they cheat the same amount, now you say that men are less likely to want monogamy... which is which?

I didn't say that. I said that, from the small sample of men who are not monogamous (google "polyamorous") most of them are men. There are more men in this subgroup of society not only because on average, more men desire polyamorous relationships, but also because there is a clear brainwashing of society on women to not do this thing. The stigma is immense.

Speaking as a person who tried to be polyamorous, I can't. I have gotten rid of any preconceptions I have. I have friends who are polyamorous and they're happy. They know what they want, they have similar values, and they're always always honest.

Some polyamorous couples have one-sided open marriages (say, if the wife is bisexual, they only invite women) but it's always a joint decision. Others, have the guy being monogamous, and the wife being polyamorous with other men. the idea is, this is letting those insticts run free, but honesty is kept.

I totally agree with the ideals here. If only men and women can be totally loyal to each other. I too want such a relationship. The difference between our argument is that you are living in a fantasy world and I am living in a real one. 'The plenty of women doesn't want a monogamous relationship' is bunk. Perhaps a very tiny percentage wants that.. but that's it.. In fact, I think most men wants a monogamous relationship....

Yes, a tiny percentage. About as many as how many men cannot keep a relationship without diversity. From the polyamorous society, I also know a good handful of men who desire an open marriage, but the wife doesn't. Do they cheat? No. They respect their spouses desires.

You would think this of course... How many percentage of our divorce rate now? 50%? 60%? and why?? Because people can control who they marry and they can choose so wisely right? And because men who are chosen by wise women won't cheat on them right?

Of course, I was talking about an ideal situation. Something that everyone should strive for.

I have found my ideal realtionship. He will not cheat on me. We are always honest to each other. He allows me to date other men (he doesn't have the jealousy gene) but I'd never do that, because I am myself monogamous. Just because people are stupid, and immature, doesn't mean a good marriage is a thing of fantasy.

It only takes to be mature enough to know what you want, pay attention carefully to the signals you receive from your mate, and go in a marriage only after years of dating. And even then, it might not last forever. But as long as he will come to me and say "I don't love you anymore, I can't continue this marriage" I will still respect him, and tons more if he simply pretended to be by my side, and cheated.

Ultimately, if a man feels that the importance of cheating is more then his spouses' desires, then he doesn't love her enough. If so, he should do the only kind thing, and break it off, so she may go and find a partner that she deserves.