Perfect age to lose your virginity...

[puzzlegirl]

This is usually a fundamental flawed religious argument. Without religion we don't have morals? I hear that all the time... but then the same religion tells us that other religions are evil and everyone's going to rot in hell for all eternity if they don't believe in one particular fictitious diety...

Um- this isn't what I was discussing at all. Stick to one topic, please.
I was saying that humans have need of religion and art (for example) that separates us from animals. But in stating that we have morals you automatically assumed religion.
I have read your threads fully (in other topics as well) where you try to explain your stance on religion (against it). But that really isn't the topic we're discussing. So I totally lost you after this point.

Higher thinking = Science.
Lower thinking and ingorance = Religion.

I am merely stating what's fact. If you want to dispute that, it's all fine with me... let the debate begin...

Any science major will tell you that nothing is fact, only theory.

I totally disagree that it's inherent in human nature to rape. Next you may say that it's inherent in human nature to 'kill'?

well, this isn't the topic either but it's just something I brought up as I had read about the theory in Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation: The Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex by Olivia Judson (ISBN-13: 978-0805063325). Rape is one of the only ways for the omega male to get ahead and pass on their genes. And in a human's case it gives them self-worth and a feeling of power? I dunno.
Of course I would never say that it's in human nature to kill. We are the only species that kills each other without purpose and that makes our species an anomaly.

My point I want to reiterate is that it doesn't matter what is "in our nature" to do- it's no excuse. It only matters what we want to decide for ourselves- whether we want to be animals, or more than that. Maybe that will make us genetic freaks. Whatever...

Personally, I love the idea of story book 'true love' and 'sexual faithfullness'...... I wish we were designed differently..

Why wish for it? Make the change in yourself and MAKE IT HAPPEN. It's called the ubermensch, the human will. (man, now I sound like a supremacist) Anyway, there are people out there who can actually have honest sexual relationships- and I refuse to associate with those who don't- no need to resign ourselves to "oh, it will always happen so let's just let it go on..."

Overall- we actually agree on plenty of points but you go on some far-off tangents, man.

[chemi]

Originally Posted by mallorymaloney

Whichever girl said that she'd let her husband cheat --- Well, personally, I just think you sound ... Like a pushover. =/ And I don't see any of your future relationships being very serious if you go into them with that kinda attitude. x_x

well if that was directed at me i think if you re read my post i didnt say i'd let my husband CHEAT. I'd just let them sleep with other people as long as they told me and were honest with me.
if they were CHEATING on me, i.e: lying to me or having a RELATIONSHIP with another woman then theyd be out the door ina second.

hey i plan to be my partner's BEST FRIEND and expect them to be able to tell me anything. and if they wanted to sleep with someone else and told me and i didnt have to meet her [there would be alot of rules lol] then whatever. god. i'd still be the one living with him and sharing his life.

i know my views are weird but it doesn't make me a PUSHOVER.

i seem to remember you being critisised for your more unusual views in another thread and hating it so forgive me if i'm a little annoyed by your comment.


edit: oh and i should add if it wasnt directed at me please disregard this message :P

[cool]

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

Um- this isn't what I was discussing at all. Stick to one topic, please.
I was saying that humans have need of religion and art (for example) that separates us from animals. But in stating that we have morals you automatically assumed religion.
I have read your threads fully (in other topics as well) where you try to explain your stance on religion (against it). But that really isn't the topic we're discussing. So I totally lost you after this point.

This was your exact quote from previously:

Are we satisfied with being animals or being what we WANT to be- which is HUMAN- by simply being emotional and empathetic? That is why we have religion, art and everything else that goes with higher thinking.

Aren't you implying that because we have religion, we are not like other animals? Ie, religion determines our morals? If i read you wrong, I apologize.. but it sure does sound that way...

In fact, it's been proven that even animals have their own little 'cults'... or 'traditions'...

You are again drawing the line between humans and animals.. to me, there's just shades in 'brain power'. A lot of animals such as some birds, monkeys, dolphines, etc have the brain power of a 3-4 year old child, can emphatize, can recognize self.. etc..

Any science major will tell you that nothing is fact, only theory.

Agreed... I have always said that... There are no truths.. that's why Religion that offers the ultimate truth is complete bogus!! Science offers usable truths.. and we approach to greater and greater truths from observations and experiments and from our constant questioning.... not from faith..

Fact is a defined english term used for scientifically proven observations... it may not be exactly the 'truth'... there's a difference.. You can say things like 'It's a fact that most birds can fly'... is that the whole truth? Maybe.. maybe not.... but when observed, most birds do fly..

It's a fact that the speed of light is 300,000 km/sec.. is that the truth? Not exactly because we can measure it more accurately.... but it suffice to say it's a fact regardless when you are observing it at a certian level of certainty.. or, you can say that it's a fact that there are more whites than blacks in the USA... in this case, it's the truth as well..

If you want to quibble over symantics, it won't advance our debate, and it'll only deteriote into pettiness... we use language as common usage.. do I have to qualify every sentence i say with 'in general, or mostly, or usually, etc?' or do I just say 'people are this way and that way'?... If you want to be more accurate in your language, try writing like lawyers... each sentence is hardly understandable... and even that is not 100% accurate.. you need to go directly to mathematics and use symbols to

Rape is one of the only ways for the omega male to get ahead and pass on their genes. And in a human's case it gives them self-worth and a feeling of power? I dunno.

I'll be honest and say outright that I haven't read enough about 'rape as the only means to pass on their genes', but from all my readings and knowledge, I would wager that this is false.

For example, males of all kinds of animals spends a lot of time attracting females without rape such as birds building the biggest, nicest nests.. they don't resort to rape... men do the same.. they used to get meals back to the cave, grows big and protective, etc.. today they get rich and sends flowers, etc...

Anyways, I won't give too much credence to one book.. i'll have to look this up, but my gut feeling is that since i can give so much examples that men do not need to resort to rape that that in itself proves the theory wrong.. on the other hand, males tend to fight each other for the right to females.. such as lions... only one alpha male gets to mate.. this is the same with a lot of mammals... the males fight among themselves to determine which is the alpha male, then the rest do not get to have sex at all.. they may do it behind the alpha male's back, but in general the alpha male gets it all.. the whole harem.. he does not need to resort to rape..

Especially in most animals, when a female is in heat, she "WANTS' sex... and that attracts the males..

Also, Dr. Tatiana's book is more of humor than pure science.. perhaps she knows a little bit about science, writes a humorous book based on quasy science... anyways. without reading the whole book, I would withhold judgement.. but I am pretty sure it's not true...

Of course I would never say that it's in human nature to kill. We are the only species that kills each other without purpose and that makes our species an anomaly.

Again false statement... there are plenty of species that kills without a purpose.. including chimpanzees.. I just saw it on the discovery channel.. chimpanzees can emphatize (ie, they understand 'self' and they understand 'pain' on others, and they would inflict pain on purpose and murder on purpose just like humans).

A lot of previous science that wants to put humans far above humans tend to say that 'only humans do this, only humans do that, only humans are emphatatic, etc.. ' but more and more so today we find that there are animals that are similar to us..

My point I want to reiterate is that it doesn't matter what is "in our nature" to do- it's no excuse. It only matters what we want to decide for ourselves- whether we want to be animals, or more than that. Maybe that will make us genetic freaks. Whatever...

Don't get angry at me.. I am only the messenger.. And yes, we are just animals.. no more.. some of the things we really can't control....

Most people don't realize it.. but the drive for sex could be more potent than drug addiction... the chemicals are just drugs that flows in our body.. drugs are also released in women's body when she has sex and that makes her feel 'deeply in love'.. this same oxytoxin hormone is also released in men.. it makes us feel in love..

We are automatons for all the 'will power' we have.. sure, we can decide to be monks and not have sex at all.. but that's just totally unnatural.. and evne monks cheat.. and that's a fact.. even priests molest young children.. so, even something like religion that promises eternal hell fire would can't stop nature.. what do you think can??

You spray some hormones at a piece of rock and an insect would rut it to death.. it can't help it.. it just follows the chemical instructions.. yes, humans can intelectualize, but we are also bound by chemicals instructions.. and all i am saying is the men are such strong testosterone that even their mind over matter tricks can't help them (most of them, let me qualify before you accuse me of generalizing, again).

Overall- we actually agree on plenty of points but you go on some far-off tangents, man.

No tangents, just whacky truths.. not the truths you want to hear....

If you like I can also say, 'Yes, men are exactly like women, we only have sex for love, we will never cheat and those that cheat are just jerks'. Is that the truth you want to hear?

Oh, btw: yes, women cheats as well.. perhaps as much as 50% according to most scientific polls..... and this usually occurs a couple days before ovulation when her testosterone is at the highest level (even at those levels, it's still like 10s of times lower than a man's).

Here's a challenge.. I challenge you to inject yourself with testosterone and get it up to a men's level for 30 days and then see if you can help youself...

[puzzlegirl]

Sure, fine, let's just agree to disagree. It's hard to back out of an argument gracefully without seeming like the sore loser.
It's just off-putting to be baited this way and that with certain subjects (biology, genetics, symantics) only to be pounced on with a contradiction. It's a big "who knows more trivia than the other?" debate.

The book by Olivia Judson is required reading for the Sexual Behaviour class at the University of Toronto and has a humorous vein that makes it enjoyable to read but everything is backed up by scientific fact. But you assume it is a humor book before you even looked it up. You say that if we questioned everything that is supposed scientific fact then nothing would ever get done but it seems that every detailed fact can be contradicted with another one. It's not that I don't want to hear them- well, it's just because I disagree. I could say the same for you.

I just don't want to see girls settling for less when they can have someone on the same level as them. It's really, really hard to maintain that kind of relationship but it's very worth it. (chemi has the right idea)

[mallorymaloney]

Originally Posted by chemi

well if that was directed at me i think if you re read my post i didnt say i'd let my husband CHEAT. I'd just let them sleep with other people as long as they told me and were honest with me.
if they were CHEATING on me, i.e: lying to me or having a RELATIONSHIP with another woman then theyd be out the door ina second.

hey i plan to be my partner's BEST FRIEND and expect them to be able to tell me anything. and if they wanted to sleep with someone else and told me and i didnt have to meet her [there would be alot of rules lol] then whatever. god. i'd still be the one living with him and sharing his life.

i know my views are weird but it doesn't make me a PUSHOVER.

i seem to remember you being critisised for your more unusual views in another thread and hating it so forgive me if i'm a little annoyed by your comment.


edit: oh and i should add if it wasnt directed at me please disregard this message :P

I'm not sure if it was you or not --- Let me check first. XD; ((I have a very bad memory sometimes. ><))

Ahh, yes, it was your post. Re-reading it now, I admit --- You didn't actually say 'cheat' anywhere ... As I said, I have a bad memory ... I should have re-read it earlier, before replying. x_X

So, you'd have rules and limitations and everything ... I understand now what you mean.

But, I still do not agree with it ... It's so weird, because I feel very uncomfortable even thinking about it. @_@;

It's not that I'm a tight-ass about the subject of sex or anything, either --- I'm just not sure what it is! I guess it's because it's such a complete opposite view of what I've ever thought. x_x It's not you personally, either ... Similar posts in this thread also give me an uncomfortable feeling.

I'm trying to figure out what it is, but I'm not sure yet. Perhaps it's because of I have a very intense loyal personality? Or maybe it's that I think people could do better? Fear of society beginning to 'de-evolve'? I don't know ... It's just unsettling to me.

Which is strange, because I was just saying to a friend about how I'm so desensitized over other things --- Like news reports about murders, tortures, mindless killings, war reports, extreme horror films, and so on ... Any of those things, I just regard with a blank stare. But this gives me a creepy feeling? GAH. WTF IS UP WITH ME.

-_-;

Oh well, it'll be interesting for me to figure out something new about myself, at any rate. XD;;

PS: Apologies for my other post --- I've been the very outspoken/angry young women type lately, haha ... And I forget that just a short while ago I was quieter and content to just avoid things, or only comment super politely. I'm a raging beast as of late. >>; ((And yeah, it's always annoying when someone randomly disagrees with you directly. I wouldn't use such a strong a word as hate, though!)) But at any rate, your choices are yours, and they aren't hurting me directly --- I gotta keep that in mind. x.x

PPS: Tsk. A long post of mine, yet again, that no one will actually read in full.

[mallorymaloney]

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

Sure, fine, let's just agree to disagree. It's hard to back out of an argument gracefully without seeming like the sore loser.
It's just off-putting to be baited this way and that with certain subjects (biology, genetics, symantics) only to be pounced on with a contradiction. It's a big "who knows more trivia than the other?" debate.

The book by Olivia Judson is required reading for the Sexual Behaviour class at the University of Toronto and has a humorous vein that makes it enjoyable to read but everything is backed up by scientific fact. But you assume it is a humor book before you even looked it up. You say that if we questioned everything that is supposed scientific fact then nothing would ever get done but it seems that every detailed fact can be contradicted with another one. It's not that I don't want to hear them- well, it's just because I disagree. I could say the same for you.

I just don't want to see girls settling for less when they can have someone on the same level as them. It's really, really hard to maintain that kind of relationship but it's very worth it. (chemi has the right idea)

You had a good run, puzzlegirl! I liked your side of the argument a lot --- But I agree, it's really difficult to do the whole 'I know more trivia than you' thing ... That's how my Dad debates quite often, and it's a lot easier to just go, 'Dad. I don't agree with you. Now shut up.' XD!;

No offence, cool, you're a very smart guy and all. You've just got such weird opinions sometimes! XD; Yet, I often read your posts in other threads, and agree.

I just thought of something --- People shouldn't judge others so quickly. Like, just because I don't agree with a few people in this thread, doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with them in other threads! I'm not going to decide, 'That's it! I'm not agreeing with anything they say! They have different views than me, holy crap! Grrr, rawr!~'

Unfortunately, it's tough to do this sometimes ... x_X; Yes, even for myself.

[chemi]

^^ no problem. i totally get how you feel about the whole thing. and no doubt, most people feel this way and that's fine. i accept i'm a freak.lol

for whatever reason i just see it differently, if i could find somebody who i have such a massive level of trust with I couldnt imagine "doing better." for me that would be the best i could hope for.

Its not even that this is something i require in a relationship hahah i dont want people to think i'm striving to find a guy who wants to sleep with other people. i just wouldnt be very surpised or outraged by the idea.


sorry everyone by the way for going so completely off topic cool and puzzlegirls debate brings up interesting points though!

[chacha]

I'm not going to read all 4 pages of this topic lol but. Having sex with someone else is cheating, emotional attachment or not. Plus, knowing his wang's going in other girls' while he's with me is just... gross, haha.
To me there's no justification for a guy to have sex with someone else when he's in a relationship. That's just that.
Anyways. Perfect age?
I'd say 18... although I'm pretty sure I'll still be a virgin beyond that point XD the clock's ticking anyway! I'm not ready to lose it at this point although I'm 18, but meh, guess when the situation comes then I'll know.

[cool]

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

Sure, fine, let's just agree to disagree. It's hard to back out of an argument gracefully without seeming like the sore loser.
It's just off-putting to be baited this way and that with certain subjects (biology, genetics, symantics) only to be pounced on with a contradiction. It's a big "who knows more trivia than the other?" debate.

The book by Olivia Judson is required reading for the Sexual Behaviour class at the University of Toronto and has a humorous vein that makes it enjoyable to read but everything is backed up by scientific fact. But you assume it is a humor book before you even looked it up. You say that if we questioned everything that is supposed scientific fact then nothing would ever get done but it seems that every detailed fact can be contradicted with another one. It's not that I don't want to hear them- well, it's just because I disagree. I could say the same for you.

I just don't want to see girls settling for less when they can have someone on the same level as them. It's really, really hard to maintain that kind of relationship but it's very worth it. (chemi has the right idea)

Ok, agreed to disagree..

But I have to add that I am merely stating facts.. I am not advocating 'cheating' in any means. I am seperating facts from our own human 'morals'.

A lot of times when I state facts, people misunderstand and thinks I am advocating this or that. I have personally never cheated on my girlfriends...

The only things I have said and stand by (and you can research this to death and you'll arrive at the same conclusion if only you put aside your emotions), are the following:

1. Men do not equate sex with love. They can easily have sex with multiple partners and still love their wives just as much. (When I say 'men', I mean men in general, say about 80%). Also men have very little control when it comes to sex because of the incredible hormonal drive. It's an uphill battle that most men fail. Women can pass judgement on men as they will, but in reality, they way men are is the way they are made...

2. Women equate sex with love and emotions. Women in general cannot just have sex with strangers.

3. Men cheats (in general, say about 80% or higher). This is just FACT. You can disagree with the notion of cheating in general (as do I), but the fact is men do cheat... so, what do you do about it? Kill the men who cheats? Divorce them? it's all up to you...

And thus, we have a fundamental physical differences between men and women that have confounded the sexes over the centuries and caused endless arguments and heartaches....

Those are the reality.

[cool]

Originally Posted by mallorymaloney

No offence, cool, you're a very smart guy and all. You've just got such weird opinions sometimes! XD; Yet, I often read your posts in other threads, and agree.

Haha.. I usually never takes offence unless someone attacks me personally. You can disagree with me all you want and you can argue the facts or the philosophy but that's what makes free speech so great. It allows people to learn more.

As for 'opinions', alas, again, I am misunderstood. I do not advocate 'cheating' and it's not my opinion that 'men should cheat and their wives should shut up about it'. I am merely standing up for 'facts', that men cheats. Simple as that. It's a fact. If you disagree with that, then I suggest doing more research on that independently.

BTW: I would love to know which of my opinions so far are considered weird by you?

1. That I agree that humans caused global warming?
2. Religion is a farce and cause of much hatred and suffering of the human race? Also a great set back for science and major player in keeping the population ignorant?
3. Men have high testosterone levels and they cheat?
4. That the US government's foreign policy causes hundreds of thousands of people to suffer and die in their protection of their oil interests?

I just thought of something --- People shouldn't judge others so quickly. Like, just because I don't agree with a few people in this thread, doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with them in other threads! I'm not going to decide, 'That's it! I'm not agreeing with anything they say! They have different views than me, holy crap! Grrr, rawr!~'

Yup. Don't judge... just debate and look at all points of view and see if they add up to the facts.. BTW: I don't think you're an angry gal.. haha.. just emotional...

[cool]

Originally Posted by chemi

^^ no problem. i totally get how you feel about the whole thing. and no doubt, most people feel this way and that's fine. i accept i'm a freak.lol

for whatever reason i just see it differently, if i could find somebody who i have such a massive level of trust with I couldnt imagine "doing better." for me that would be the best i could hope for.

Its not even that this is something i require in a relationship hahah i dont want people to think i'm striving to find a guy who wants to sleep with other people. i just wouldnt be very surpised or outraged by the idea.


sorry everyone by the way for going so completely off topic cool and puzzlegirls debate brings up interesting points though!

Chemi, I enjoy your posts.. I don't think you're a freak or freakish....

You're just older and wiser! hahha...

[chemi]

thanks! hehe im only 19 though! less with the old!

20 IN A FEW MONTHS URRGH i still feel about 12

[puzzlegirl]

Yeah, I will admit that I let my emotions get in the way. And reading things over, there are shaky facts that you were quick to disprove (the one thing I got right, however- and even provided reference- you dismissed)
So your arguments just didn't sit right with me- all because I couldn't remove emotion and empathy out of the equation. Like the gut-wrenching feeling of knowing someone you love is with someone else (like mallory described). Emotion is an essential human trait (often associated with females and by god, I will defend it to the death) that can't be forgotten.

On the contrary- I know girls who are major players and guys who are virgins because they haven't found The One yet. I don't need the testosterone injection- I am violent and horny enough.
The problem is, there's a whole slew of psychological reasons why humans won't do what they are naturally assumed to do and it would take forever to go over.

It's tough to argue on a sciencey level. I'm an arts student. I take the natural order and twist it around. There's also not too many (not enough) people defending religion out there on the interwubs. Everyone is too busy watching pr0n or youtubing puppies getting thrown off cliffs.

Anyway girls- if he loved you, he wouldn't cheat. (at the very least, out of consideration for you.)

[mallorymaloney]

Originally Posted by cool

Haha.. I usually never takes offence unless someone attacks me personally. You can disagree with me all you want and you can argue the facts or the philosophy but that's what makes free speech so great. It allows people to learn more.

As for 'opinions', alas, again, I am misunderstood. I do not advocate 'cheating' and it's not my opinion that 'men should cheat and their wives should shut up about it'. I am merely standing up for 'facts', that men cheats. Simple as that. It's a fact. If you disagree with that, then I suggest doing more research on that independently.

BTW: I would love to know which of my opinions so far are considered weird by you?

1. That I agree that humans caused global warming?
2. Religion is a farce and cause of much hatred and suffering of the human race? Also a great set back for science and major player in keeping the population ignorant?
3. Men have high testosterone levels and they cheat?
4. That the US government's foreign policy causes hundreds of thousands of people to suffer and die in their protection of their oil interests?



Yup. Don't judge... just debate and look at all points of view and see if they add up to the facts.. BTW: I don't think you're an angry gal.. haha.. just emotional...

I think I've figured part of it out --- It's that I consider a married man having sex with someone who isn't his sponse, cheating. In my mind, that's cheating, no matter what anyone calls it. And yeah, I still haven't figured out why exactly it bothers me.

Oh, and I think #1 and #3 are the weird opinions that I don't agree with. @_@;

#2 I completely agree with.

#4 I agree with --- But I don't care one bit. It's like, a sarcastic, 'And that's news?' My desensitation again, I think!


Oh, and yeah, I've been told before I'm emotional --- And everytime I'm told this, I get even more emotional, ironically enough, because I start ranting, 'WTF! Emotional?! Are you trying to say I'm fxcking emo or something? I am so not emotional! WTF! That's insane!'

Obviously, I am. And obviously, I hate it. ><

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

... It's tough to argue on a sciencey level. I'm an arts student. I take the natural order and twist it around ...

You're like me then, as I'm also rather 'artsy' in a way --- Creative minds think alike, but only with other creative minds.

Creative minded people, and scientific people, just do not mix, I've found. They usually always clash, which results in huge debates.

Everyone is too busy watching pr0n or youtubing puppies getting thrown off cliffs.

LOL! Sadly, this part of your post made me laugh.

That whole puppy thing is getting old, man. I really want to tell everyone, 'Jesus, get over it --- Worse things have happened,' but it's tough to say that and not sound like a complete jerkwad. >_>; So I say nothing, and laugh quietly to myself, instead.

<_<;

[eastcoastma]

And there's not a "specific" age in which you should lose your V. When you're ready and think it's the best time then you should do it. But I really suggest waiting anyway because times change and so would your mind, so think before you open your legs :]

[cool]

Originally Posted by mallorymaloney

I think I've figured part of it out --- It's that I consider a married man having sex with someone who isn't his sponse, cheating. In my mind, that's cheating, no matter what anyone calls it. And yeah, I still haven't figured out why exactly it bothers me.

Oh, and I think #1 and #3 are the weird opinions that I don't agree with. @_@;

#2 I completely agree with.

#4 I agree with --- But I don't care one bit. It's like, a sarcastic, 'And that's news?' My desensitation again, I think!

With global warming, I guess I can say right now, the skeptics like yourself are in the minority, so it would not be a weird opinion of mine. It would have been a 'weird opinion' of yours. Anyways, I won't discuss that here as we had a thread that discusses that. I would be happy to answer questions on this though if you want to start another thread on it... and we can have a jolly debate there as well...

As for 'Men do cheat', which you say you don't agree with which confuses me.. you don't agree that men cheats, or that you think it's not ok for men to cheat?

Remember, I am not advocating that men cheats.. I am merely stating that men do cheat.. there's a difference....

The latter is a matter of data (and in surveys after surveys, men generally say that they cheat).

As for the former, ie, the moral question, I leave here without my own judgement. I leave that up to every person to decide.

Creative minded people, and scientific people, just do not mix, I've found. They usually always clash, which results in huge debates.

I have to totally, strongly disagree with this. I am highly creative and Art is my passion. Science is my passion too. And most of my 'scientific minded' friends are all very creative. In fact, I would argue that if you're not creative, you can't do science very well...

I believe that creative people are just people who can see more perspective and if they put their mind to it, they can do anything extremely well, whether art or science. All the greatest scientists are also artists... Leonardo Da Vinci for instance, Einstein for instance... etc..

And an 'Art major' does not automatically mean they are creative.. Creative people are hard to come by actually simply because our education system is geared towards training our left brain.... HOpefully today, more and more our school will teach more the creative side of our brain..

[cool]

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

Yeah, I will admit that I let my emotions get in the way. And reading things over, there are shaky facts that you were quick to disprove (the one thing I got right, however- and even provided reference- you dismissed)

First, no, I did not dismiss your reference on the 'rape' thing. I said outright that I don't know about this enough that I withhold ultimate judgement. And then I went on to provide other bits of facts that I do know which 'may' contradict the book you referenced, but not conclusively, and still I withhold judgement on that... and I merely said that from the bits of information I have, I would waver towards the other side...

So, did you get the facts 'right' just because a book that a university uses said so? You may, or may not.. and the thing about science is that it does not get angry at people for arguing about about anything, including what a book says.... and I just made some arguments against that.. if you can put up a counter argument then that's fine.... I accept which arguments that end up stronger...

On the contrary- I know girls who are major players and guys who are virgins because they haven't found The One yet.

I already said that there are a whole range.... Never have I said there are no abnormalies.. you can always give examples of this and that... but that does not prove the whole or disprove the whole...

I don't need the testosterone injection- I am violent and horny enough.

And I don't expect you to... you may grow a beard.. !

My point is, unless you do have the same level of testosterone, you can't possibly argue for how a guy feels. You keep defending your own 'emotions' and 'feelings' and I am defending a guy's 'emotions and feelings' towards sex.. and I am only defending my own gender as I know very well how I feel as a guy.. you are actually telling how guys should feel?...

There's also not too many (not enough) people defending religion out there on the interwubs.

There are tons of people defending religion. In the entire middle east, you can't even speak out against religion.. perhaps you should live in a religious country before you defend it too much... I live in one and I can tell you it's not all that great!

In the two terms that America turned religous, it turned the world upside down... caused 200,000 people to die and millions to suffer... (of course you're going to argue that it's not religion that caused it, but no one denies that without the Christian fanatics, and Bush's pandering to them about gay marriage, Bush would not have been in office)

Everyone is too busy watching pr0n

By everyone, you mean every guy? haha...

Anyway girls- if he loved you, he wouldn't cheat. (at the very least, out of consideration for you.)

It's a good ideal though...

As a guy, and understands how strong women feel about sex, I can tell you that guys do try very hard not to cheat.. but ultimately, 80% succumbs... like it or not... Personally I am not married, and when I do, I'll try very, very, very hard not to cheat.. and if I should succumb, I can tell you the logical thing to do is 'lie about it'.. hahaha..

And I guess that guys can say the same thing abotu women, 'If she loves you, she'll understand and forgive you...' after all 'Jesus says everyone should be forgiven'... if you want to get religious...

And oh, 'women should never nag guys or try to change him if she loves them'... bleh

[puzzlegirl]

Okay, now this really can't go uncontested.

Men do not equate sex with love. They can easily have sex with multiple partners and still love their wives just as much.
(When I say 'men', I mean men in general, say about 80%). Also men have very little control when it comes to sex because of the incredible
hormonal drive. It's an uphill battle that most men fail. Women can pass judgement on men as they will, but in reality, they way men are
is the way they are made...

This is incredibly unfair to both men and women, essentially implying that men don't experience emotional involvement at all when it comes to sex. It is downright false (maybe you need to spend more time observing human behaviour rather then applying theories to it) as men report greater sexual satisfaction when emotions are involved in a relationship. Most men would opt for regular sex in a loving relationship than constant sex with many people.

Women equate sex with love and emotions. Women in general cannot just have sex with strangers.

Also naive. Ever heard of something called the sexual revolution? More women do it than you think. Less than men, but there is also a social stigma attached to women being more often called sluts when they are promiscuous. Also, women are more vulnerable as assault and rape are such huge threats. If the gender playing field was leveled, more women would do it.

Men have high testosterone levels and they cheat?

Surely I will not deny that men have high testosterone. But I think if you told any guy that they always think with their dick they would be majorly offended. Why?
Because that "spread your seed" instinct is no longer needed in our current society. Humans now mainly rely on social interaction instead of survival. Although this fact was true in the past and today in sparsely populated areas you don't see everyone scrambling to have babies. Following your sexual instincts at every turn (like the priest molesters and the serial philanderers that you mention) is generally unacceptable behaviour in modern society (so it is NORMAL to hate cheaters).
Does testosterone = cheating? No- both men and women cheat for a variety of reasons- they are not satisfied with their current partner, or they like the thrill of getting away with it. It's naive to think that women don't do it. Though testosterone might make it more likely for men to cheat physically, both sexes are capable of cheating emotionally.
So yes, some men cheat. A whopping 80%? I don't think so (I think you need to update your statistics)

Personally I am not married, and when I do, I'll try very, very, very hard not to cheat.. and if I should succumb, I can tell you the
logical thing to do is 'lie about it'.. hahaha..

And you say that trust is important. Unless you are being sarcastic. hahaha.
The effort you spend "resisting to cheat" would be better spent improving your relationship, would it not?
Should we put up with it? No way. Eventually this archaic instinct may be outbred (seeing as the world is overpopulated as it is).

Religion is a farce and cause of much hatred and suffering of the human race? Also a great set back for science and major player in
keeping the population ignorant?

So you know a lot of reasons why religion is bad (which I'm not going to contest). But do you also know the reasons why religion is good?
Having attended church for 10 years (you will learn more about religion that way than in any book) I can still acknowledge evolution, be pro-choice and pro-gay. Some may think I'm not a very good Christian. But I think even my minister would be proud of a balance achieved by love and understanding.

If you ask me the one thing I have retained from religion it would be: Love and respect everyone. (Just try and think of something wrong with that- besides that it's really difficult. And no, you don't need religion to learn that,
but it helps) Do I follow the bible? No- but I've read the entire thing. And I can even convince atheists that Jesus was an awesomely stellar guy. (for more info, you can PM me.)
So in my opinion, war-mongers like Bush and science-lab bomber extremists are not truly Christians at all- frankly, we are ashamed of them.

Science and religion are both extremely powerful forces and one could never replace the other. Frankly, the world would be a miserable place having one without the other. So I take issue with deeming religion "farcical" as it is an inextractable aspect of humanity. Might as well learn to deal with it and improve upon it, as science improves upon itself.

P.S:

There's also not too many (not enough) people defending religion out there on the interwubs.

It's hilariously counterproductive to be having a serious debate on the internet as the nature and usage of internet itself hinders communication as much as it enables it, eliminating physical clues such as voice intonation and emphasis, passage of time, etc. Also- it's the INTERWUBS. People don't go there to think. [sarcasm]

Everyone is too busy watching pr0n
By everyone, you mean every guy? haha...

No, I mean everybody.

[cool]

Puzzlegirl, when people get nasty in debates (like calling someone naive and implying that they are stupid), I generally bow out, but in this case I am slightly agitated because of you innuendos and misrepresentations.....

Originally Posted by puzzlegirl

This is incredibly unfair to both men and women, essentially implying that men don't experience emotional involvement at all when it comes to sex. It is downright false (maybe you need to spend more time observing human behaviour rather then applying theories to it) as men report greater sexual satisfaction when emotions are involved in a relationship. Most men would opt for regular sex in a loving relationship than constant sex with many people.

I have never said or implied that men don't experience emotions when they have sex. On the contrary, men DO feel emotions when they have sex. It's impossible not to as the hormone oxytoxin released during sex gives the emotionally feeling of well beaing and love...They just don't need emotional involvement BEFORE sex, and thus, the main major difference between men and women.

Also naive. Ever heard of something called the sexual revolution? More women do it than you think. Less than men, but there is also a social stigma attached to women being more often called sluts when they are promiscuous. Also, women are more vulnerable as assault and rape are such huge threats. If the gender playing field was leveled, more women would do it.

Calling me names like 'naive' will surely help you appear more intelligent! Harumph!

You can have all the revolution in the world and women will always be women. They will, again, before you misquote me, IN GENERAL, will not have sex for sex's sake. You can if you like, give a few examples here and there, but the numbers will never work up... Go to any culture, even the most open cultures in the world, and you'll find that women will still be women, and men will still be men...

Surely I will not deny that men have high testosterone. But I think if you told any guy that they always think with their dick they would be majorly offended. Why?

How do you know? Are you a guy? All my guy friends talk exactly this way. None of us get offended. We make jokes out of it... You see it in the movies, the news, the media in general and everywhere and do you see men going up in arms about it?

Because that "spread your seed" instinct is no longer needed in our current society. Humans now mainly rely on social interaction instead of survival. Although this fact was true in the past and today in sparsely populated areas you don't see everyone scrambling to have babies.

May I call you naive now? Since you called me so, I guess it's fine with you... It's now obvious to me you have zero understanding of what evolution is all about... Today, for humans, natural evolution have almost stopped because we change the environment to our needs. THe environment no longer changes us. Why are men the way they are? The evolutionary theory is that the men of our past (say cave men) who are sexually more prosmicious got more of their 'prosmicious' genes passed on down the generation, and the men who are more monogamous did not.. thus, you get a large proportion of men who are prosmicious today. In order for evolution to work today to reverse these numbers, there needs to be a mechanism that causes men who are prosmicious to stop passing on their genes. There are currently none today. Perhaps if you set up a law that executes prosmicious men, in a few hundred years you would have more monogamous men. Then men would have evolved from prosmicious today to non promiscious tomorrow.

Following your sexual instincts at every turn (like the priest molesters and the serial philanderers that you mention) is generally unacceptable behaviour in modern society (so it is NORMAL to hate cheaters).

Are you equating pedophiles with adults cheating on their spouses? Your moral compass is definitely whacked!

Also, yet again, without fail, you're misrepresenting me... Did I ever say cheating is ok? If simply stating facts like 'men cheats' suddenly makes you angry at me, then I guess I should just shut up!

Does testosterone = cheating?

I never said it is.. Yet another misrepresentation. I am saying that it makes it harder NOT to cheat.

No- both men and women cheat for a variety of reasons- they are not satisfied with their current partner, or they like the thrill of getting away with it. It's naive to think that women don't do it.

Yet, yet, another misrepresentation... did I say women don't cheat? I say if they do, they generally do it because they are not satisfied with their relationships or when their testosterone levels are at the highest and the opportunity presents themselves... In fact, I specifically said that about 50% of women cheats as well... perhaps not as frequent, but this is one stat or survey that is done...

Men cheat for reaons of having sex alone most of the time... have I said they don't cheat for any other reasons?

Though testosterone might make it more likely for men to cheat physically

Ah, finally the right representation....

So yes, some men cheat. A whopping 80%? I don't think so (I think you need to update your statistics)

Update from where? Do you have your own sets? I have searched a lot and found the stats form surveys that says anywhere betwen 30-80%... But personally I believe it's at the high end... why? Because of two simple factors.. One, I am a man, and I have truthful access to large numbers of men friends, in the hundreds, and most of them cheats (if they are able to)... plus, two, when you ask people about whether they cheat, it's very likely that they would deny it.....

In the end, I guess in this regard, you can believe your own stats and I mine..

Here's an article that I randomly found. You can look it up and you'll find that most studies will be in the same vein...

In this article, you'll find that it corroborates every single thing I have thus far said, ie:

1. Both men and women cheats.
2. Men, about 80% of the time. (you can have your own if you like)
3. Women, about 50% of the time. (again, you can have your own)
4. Men cheats for sexual purposes mostly. And this is primarily due to their high level of testosterone, the hormone that induces men to constantly think about sex which is also the hormone that is responsible for libido and sexual interest, without which, you would have no sexual interest at all.
5. Women cheats for emotional reasons.

Article on Infidelity:

The latest infidelity studies indicate that percentage-wise the gap is closing between cheating husbands in comparison to the percentage of cheating wives. However, even though more men are now becoming victims of infidelity, the fact still remains that 70% of infidelity victims are women. What’s interesting though, is that men and women who are cheating on their spouses give different reasons to justify their extramarital affairs.

The Top Reasons Men and Women Cheat

The top 3 reasons men cheat all relate to sex. However sex is not usually the motivating factor for cheating wives. The top 3 reasons women cheat relate to unmet emotional needs or a desire for attention. Listed below are the most common reasons cheating husbands and cheating wives use to justify their extramarital affairs:

Why Men Cheat

The most frequently cited reasons for infidelity among men include
• more sex (the desire for a more active sex life)
• sexual variety (a desire for different kinds of sex)
• opportunistic sex ( taking advantage of an opportunity to have sex without the fear of getting caught)
• to satisfy sexual curiosity (about a specific female)
• a feeling of entitlement (the belief that it’s a man’s prerogative to cheat)
• the “thrill of the chase”
• the desire to feel important or special
• sexual addiction

Why Women Cheat

The reasons most frequently cited for female infidelity include
• a desire for emotional closeness and intimacy (someone caring to confide in and bond with on an emotional level)
• a desire for attention (wanting be the center of a man’s attention again)
• to reaffirm her desirability (To feel validated as a woman)
• to re-experience feelings of romance
• a desire to feel “special”
• boredom
• loneliness
• sexual excitement

Men Cheat for Sexual Reasons, Women Cheat for Emotional Reasons

Granted, these are not the only reasons men and women cheat. There are other reasons as well. But the bottom line is that men are cheating on their wives primarily for sexual reasons, while women are cheating on their husbands mainly for emotional reasons. But these are the reasons most frequently given by cheating husbands and cheating wives who are willing to discuss their extramarital affairs.

Numerous studies on infidelity bear that out. In one study, 75% to 80% of the men who admitted to having extramarital affairs said that sex was the primary reason. Only 20% of the women who were having extramarital affairs said they did so for purely sexual reasons.

Where do I get my facts on these? Lots of research, on surveys conducted, reading many books on relationships and even books on gender differences. Where do you get your facts? Did you just pull them off thin air??

So you know a lot of reasons why religion is bad (which I'm not going to contest). But do you also know the reasons why religion is good?

Sorry, I must admit I really don't know of any. And I am not being sarcastic at all. I do know that at the base of religions, it teaches us to love, etc.. but at the back, it also teaches us to hate, ie, to hate people who don't believe the same as we do, and to believe in fairy tales as the absolute truth, and to be ignorant and ignore all that contradicts what the religion tells us as absolute truth, and to constantly fight science and progress... In fact, the teaching us to 'love thy neighbor' part may be extremely dangerously deceptive as it can be used to justify that religion is good and thus prolonging it's lifespan. This is but only a disguise. As an organization, it is a force for evil, it is a force for division, it is a force for ignorance... Can religious people be good? Of course, most of us have instinct to be morally good.. but religions tries to take credit for it and how many times have we heard the phrase, 'so, we are all bad, but only thru religion can be be good'... what utter nonsense...

If you are taught to 'love thy neighbor', period, then I would say that it's good... and that's what modern scientific and philosophical moral teaches us.. "love and learn'... and without the 'hate and ignorance' associated with it.

Having attended church for 10 years (you will learn more about religion that way than in any book) I can still acknowledge evolution, be pro-choice and pro-gay. Some may think I'm not a very good Christian. But I think even my minister would be proud of a balance achieved by love and understanding.

I have been to church for 12 years.

Until your church acknowledges in public that:

1. Gay people are good and not an abberation
2. Evolution is how we got here, not magically created by god.
3. Women have the right to abortion

Then you got those good moral qualities from attending church. Otherwise, you got it from a scientific society and you just ignore your own Religious teachings. And yes, you are not a true christian because you basically ignored the word of god (the bible)... Would the pope agree with you, btw?

If you ask me the one thing I have retained from religion it would be: Love and respect everyone. (Just try and think of something wrong with that- besides that it's really difficult. And no, you don't need religion to learn that,
but it helps)

Right, we don't need religion to leard that... any atheist parents can and usually do instill those qualities in their children without all the evil dogma associated with religion... and right, I can't think of why loving people is bad... but I can think of persecuting gay people are wrong... Believing in a god that would murder the entire world's population because he's pissed is wrong! Believing in a god that punished men for eternity for trying to learn (eating from the fruit of knowledge) is wrong...

Do I follow the bible? No- but I've read the entire thing. And I can even convince atheists that Jesus was an awesomely stellar guy. (for more info, you can PM me.)

You don't follow the bible, you're not a christian, period. If christians don't follow the bible, why have it? From childhood, and yes, I grow up a christian, and a fanatic one at that, the churches have taught us that the bible is the absolute word of god...

And is Jesus a stellar guy? I don't know... does he even exist? And if he does, then perhaps he's a stellar guy.. but is he a god? Absolutely not... even the muslims don't believe so... and the keep better records than the christians, just to be fair...

So in my opinion, war-mongers like Bush and science-lab bomber extremists are not truly Christians at all- frankly, we are ashamed of them.

Who we? The liberal, born into a christian family who don't believe in the bible? Or, the real christians that got him into office? The gay haters, the pro-life, and the bible believers? The ones who actually believe in their own religious text??

As far as I am concerned, you got more of your morals from science and a liberal society, then from your religion...


Anyways........

[puzzlegirl]

You say I'm misrepresenting you, I say you're misrepresenting me. This leads to my capitulation (on my second try!) that a truce is needed since our opinions are just too different...
I'm just hoping some people out there will evaluate our separate arguments and put in their two cents about what makes more sense... since there isn't exactly a moderator.
I'm just fine if you are declared the winner if I can go back to my fantasy world of gender equality and abolishment of stereotypes.

In order for evolution to work today to reverse these numbers, there needs to be a mechanism that causes men who are prosmicious to stop passing on their genes.

Herein lies the dilemma. Thanks to religious values of monogamy, men and women who mate and reproduce with one partner (aka marriage) have become the majority. Since women value emotional connection with their mate, the philanderers would be rooted out (even less likely- since the advent of birth control- that a woman would choose to reproduce with a man who will not stay with her). Combine these values passed on with many other social factors that discourage promiscuity and the "promiscuous" gene would be the one which gets bred out. It's not the natural order of things, but it's how we have slowly become.
Of course, these things come in waves. Whether there's a social wave of monogamous values or a sexual revolution, each generation will be slightly different.

Are you equating pedophiles with adults cheating on their spouses? Your moral compass is definitely whacked!

I should have said: FROM priest molesters TO serial philanderers- thinking with your dick kind of applies to both on opposite extremes.

Also, yet again, without fail, you're misrepresenting me... Did I ever say cheating is ok? If simply stating facts like 'men cheats' suddenly makes you angry at me, then I guess I should just shut up!

I myself am trying to figure out why cheating inspires such emotion in some people. I am angry with the notion itself and not at you. Betrayal of any kind is a major catalyst for some people that will inspire rage, self-deprecation, depression, etc. and they are not any less normal for it.

Yet, yet, another misrepresentation... did I say women don't cheat? I say if they do, they generally do it because they are not satisfied with their relationships or when their testosterone levels are at the highest and the opportunity presents themselves... In fact, I specifically said that about 50% of women cheats as well... perhaps not as frequent, but this is one stat or survey that is done... Men cheat for reaons of having sex alone most of the time... have I said they don't cheat for any other reasons?

Sorry, but your concrete way of laying down point 1,2 and 3 in presenting your opinions does draw that conclusion.

Women equate sex with love and emotions. Women in general cannot just have sex with strangers.

Putting sentences like these side by side implies that they are related. You say women can't have sex when they aren't in love, I say women can't sleep around like men do because society tells them not to, it's freaking dangerous, and there's a lot more complications at stake (pregnancy) Both statements may be true but I don't feel that one provides proof of the other. I believe that women could be just as horny and value sex as highly as men if given the chance. If you can be the authority on what men think, this is what I have perceived as what women think...

Moving on...

And yes, you are not a true christian because you basically ignored the word of god (the bible)... Would the pope agree with you, btw?

Ooh- here lies our problem. Can I take a wild guess and say that you were raised Roman catholic, or something equally orthodox? Yeah- I'm Presbytarien/Protestant (basically the laziest tradition-wise and the most liberal) and Catholicism hates us cause they think we're not extreme enough. Luckily, I came away with my religion intact and unscathed.
So orthodox Christians will tell me that I'm not Christian because I don't believe in the entire bible or interpret it literally. But I feel that because the bible was written by humans and thus flawed by the opinions of those who wrote it (thus the misogyny, the contradictions, the prejudice, etc) I can't trust most of it. The only things I feel obligated to follow word for word are the teachings of Christ.
And doesn't believing in Christ make you Christian? Jesus says that's all you need. What a contradiction, huh? Jesus says this IN THE BIBLE, but Catholics say you're not because you've ALSO got to believe in the Bible.
If it's confusing, feel free to think of me as something else that believes in Jesus and is not Christian, and that is what I am.

As far as I am concerned, you got more of your morals from science and a liberal society, then from your religion...

Wouldn't it be nice if religion and science could be integrated? Both blasphemous and illogical, but nice.
You can say that, but I will always give science and religion equal thought and I believe that one could never replace the other.